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  • #46
    We're sorry to hear that some of you are experiencing problems with the Schools. The reports that have been posted here and notified to us directly must be taken in context with the numbers produced. However, despite this, we are concerned by these reports and are actively investigating the matter. We have run a number of examples on our test tracks and have not as yet replicated the issue. Once we receive examples of damaged models and have had an opportunity to examine them, we will have a better understanding of what has happened and can act accordingly.

    In the event that damage does occur then please return the model to the place of purchase, to DCC Supplies or contact us directly.
    Regards
    Andy

    Dapol Staff Member

    Comment


    • Mark Ellis
      Mark Ellis commented
      Editing a comment
      Andy, we've put up with the dire traction and derailing issues on the M7 because when that derails it doesn't self destruct. And we now know that the M7 has to run on minimum Radius 2. Afte market Traction tyres for the original ND-046 would be really appreciated by the way
      Whilst we are all in agreement that the Schools is a beautiful looking model, Dapol must design theses so that if a derail does happen then it will not self destruct, jam itself solid or bend anything just because a wheel comes off the track. If I wanted nice looking tender locos that I can't use in case they break themselves should they derail for any reason then I'd buy Del Prado.
      Part of the RnD of any tender loco should include "What happens if the bogie derails?" Farish don't have these problems

    • Les1952
      Les1952 commented
      Editing a comment
      To partly answer Mark- my M7s have run for years on radius 1 with no problems. Farish also have their problems- the pony trucks on Farish locos can have their flat spring go in all sorts of directions (and bend beyond repair) on derailment- indeed I have suggested to them that THEIR locos have an unnecessary spring........

  • #47
    Have just finished running-in my 2nd Schools - Shrewsbury with no problems whatsoever. Ran perfectly straight from the box with no derailing and after an hour in each direction (with loco. turned through 180 degrees half way through) it will crawl at a snail's pace. A truly wonderful model.

    Comment


    • #48
      I've also had no issues with my Malvern, and I've had it running for around 4 hours now, both around a loop and through various permutations of Kato unitrack S bends to see if I could make it do the same. I've even managed to fit the front steps by placing them slightly closer to the edge of the running board and it will still negotiate the curves without derailing.

      I do think this needs to be put into context with the number of models produced. I don't know the exact figures, and Dapol are unlikely to release them, but as an educated guess I would imagine that a minimum of 1000 of each version have been produced, and there are 10 different catalogue numbers, so there could be 10,000 models produced in this first run. I have seen 5, maybe 6 reports of front bogie derailing across the 3 forums I read, so the number affected by this issue is just 0.06%. Even if if the production run is half that, we are still only talking around 0.1% reporting this issue, so calling for distribution to be halted based on a handful of reports is, frankly, unrealistic.

      I know its frustrating when you receive a model that doesn't perform, but Dapol are not alone here, and I have returned several recent Farish models with much worse problems straight out of the box.

      Tom.

      Comment


      • doug22150
        doug22150 commented
        Editing a comment
        That's good. Despite theses teething problems the Schools really is a superb model and Dapol are to be congratulated. Just looking at some other threads on different websites, I'm getting the impression that the "motion fouling" issue only seems to affect the Repton models. That's certainly my experience as I've already commented: Shrewsbury ran in perfectly with no derailing and ran very smoothly straight from the box.

      • Neil Dapol
        Neil Dapol commented
        Editing a comment
        Doug22150, I have had Reston running around my layout at home and had no issues so, far so your comment is of great interest. I will look into this in the morning.
        Last edited by Neil Dapol; 17 July 2016, 20:29.

    • #49
      Yes, TomE, this does need to be put in context. The issue isn't of the loco derailing, and never has been.

      The issue is that if the rear wheel of the bogie is off the rail for any reason then damage WILL occur to valve gear and connecting rods - And that is the part that is unacceptable.

      Whilst your loco has run around the track with no problem, should the wheel be off for any reason then you will be just as unimpressed at the design issue. Especially if this happens outside of the 12 month warranty.

      This damage could happen at any time because of design, and Dapol not checking what would happen if the wheel was to be off the rail. That old story of designers and engineers.

      I've had a quick play with the replacement Schools, and noted that due to the size (depth) of the valve gear joint - it can actually foul in the spokes of the oversized (depth) wheel as well as jamming against the end of the wheel once the joint moves outside the circumference of the wheel.

      Comment


      • Steve
        Steve commented
        Editing a comment
        Post removed due to T&C violation: Abusive behaviour
        Last edited by Andy Dapol; 17 July 2016, 12:57. Reason: Moderation.

      • TomE
        TomE commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm sorry, but your very own first post on this subject clearly states that your model suffered damage after de-railing. If your model had not de-railed, there would have been no issue. Of course if someone happens to have not railed it properly in the first place then we could potentially have the same scenario, but I fail to see how Dapol can be held responsible for poor handling of the model on the owners part in such an event.

        Tom.

    • #50
      Please gents calm down, this loco has not been designed to self destruct anymore than it has been designed to run off the tracks. If it derails like the real think damage will occur. Try putting rocks in a washing machine and turning it on, it will probably self destruct, but it was not designed to. This loco was not designed to run with one wheel off the track, Dapol have replaced your damaged one so that should be the end of it.
      Regards Richard

      ‚Äč

      Comment


      • #51
        The short term solution for anyone with a Schools is to turn it on it's back, put your thumb nails against the inside of the valve gear to conrod joints, and spread the joints towards the outside of the loco. People chipping in on numerous groups when they haven't even bought one speaks volumes of narrow mindedness

        Comment


        • Richard Dallimore
          Richard Dallimore commented
          Editing a comment
          Mark you are being just as narrow minded by not excepting opposing views from happy customers. Has your second one derailed? Or did you take it up on yourself to modify it before trying it?

        • doug22150
          doug22150 commented
          Editing a comment
          I'm not sure that I would want to do that to a newly purchased loco. and my 2nd (Shrewsbury) has performed faultlessly with no such modification. I do think that particular care does need to be taken to make sure that the loco. is sitting properly on the rails. (Which is exactly what I did with Shrewsbury). With the fine scale flanges on the bogie wheels, it would be easy to not notice a misplaced wheel.

      • #52
        Folks. Please, this a professional forum.
        We welcome observations, criticisms, debates and are we are also mature enough to weather a little abuse aimed at ourselves, (when it is factually based). But,

        We will not tolerate behaviour which intimidates or abuses other members.

        If you have a point of view regardless of its nature, please ensure you phrase it in relation to the model and/or your express your opinion. Please consider and accept that other opinions may exist other than your own, and also accept that by repeatedly posting similar and/or further comments on the same problem, you not only make the thread difficult to follow, but you also risk diluting your original point. I would suggest the natural 'to and fro' of a debate is best kept as comments on the original posting.

        In this case we have received a number of comments relating to damage to the valve gear on this model. I have stated to all involved, as well as within this thread, Issues reported have occurred with a minority of models shipped to date and that nevertheless, we are investigating the issue. Please allow us time to do so.
        Last edited by Andy Dapol; 17 July 2016, 14:33.
        Regards
        Andy

        Dapol Staff Member

        Comment


        • #53
          N Gauge Schools Class: Update on reported issues in this forum.

          Our models are designed and tested to run optimally on an average layout, however certain restrictions must apply. This model (and all other Locomotive models with tender) produced by Dapol and other manufacturers are not intended for use on curves of less than R2 - 263.5mm (10 3/8in). The assumption is made that track is correctly laid on a firm, level baseboard and that all rail joints are snug and no gaps exist between rail sections. Operating your model on tighter radii or on substandard track has a greater likelihood of poor running or derailment which may lead to damage. Care in running and reasonable speed control is always needed with any model. Worthy of note is that Peco set-track points are R1 228mm (9in) therefore low speeds should be maintained it you choose to operate your model over this type of turnout.

          This model has proven during testing that is is extremely resistant to derailing, however if incorrectly railed, or potentially, after a derailment, there is a possibility that under some circumstances the rearmost wheel may jam against the crosshead. We recommend that if the model derails it is examined before re-railing for this type of issue. Continued operation with the bogie jammed in this position will result in damage to the valve gear. If you discover this type of Jam or lock-up has occurred, then DO NOT attempt to manually move the bogie or valve gear, you will run the risk of causing damage. Instead, remove the bogie retaining screw (There is a spring underneath the bogie, take care not to allow it to escape) and lift the bogie away. This will remove the jam without causing further damage. After examining the valve gear for any bends, re-attach the bogie to the chassis.
          Regards
          Andy

          Dapol Staff Member

          Comment


          • zodiac
            zodiac commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks for the sensible advice.

            Certainly the reports of potential problems and damage are worrying especially as they have been couched in rather unnecessary emotive terms like 'self destruct' and 'damage WILL' occur. Obviously the model is not designed to derail anymore than it is designed to be dropped, but, of course, both could result in damage. Perhaps some investigation or report of the cause of the derailments, which is obviously a contributory factor for resultant damage, ought be provided or investigated.

            Z.

        • #54
          Pre and Post production testing has shown that the issue is not, that the model derails without reason. Overall, this model is probably the best I personally have used at staying on the rails.
          However derailments are inevitable with model railways, more so on tighter curves. This particular model can be a little tricky to seat the pony on the track correctly (been there, done that!).
          With the Schools, a larger than usual proportion of our customers are stating that they operate on R1 curves; it's been an unwritten and poorly publicised 'fact' that models are designed for R2 curves, this omission is being corrected (see post above) and all future models (locos and rolling stock) will have the minimum recommended radius printed on the label (see example below).
          Remember just because the recommended radius is R2 doesn't mean it will definitely not run on R1, but it does mean compromises may need to be made regarding running speed and general care (track cleaning etc.) Also the type of loco should be considered, for instance I'm sure I wouldn't need to state the chances of running a 9F on R1 successfully are practically nil. I have very successfully run the Schools on R1 track at maximum speed (also around a passing loop formed from two R1 Peco setrack points) The coaches couldn't stay on due to centrifugal force and toppled, but the loco ran like a champ. However, this is one model and only my personal observation I do not recommend running on R1, and definitely not at full speed! The official line is still R2 as this is the working radius during design.

          The issue is that if the model derails and more especially if it derails at speed, or is run with the front bogie off the track then the possibility of valve gear damage may exist.
          In short, it seems that maximum speed derailments may cause an issue (in testing 1 of 12 forced high speed derailments caused a problem, and 1 of 20 'incorrect operation' tests [moving off with front bogie not sitting on the rails] caused a problem - in all, other than continued forced operation, no mechanical damage occurred). Of course this experiment would vary, dependent on the track condition. Our test track is best described as below average - purposefully!

          Rather than debating 'fault' we have offered those few customers who have reported this problem replacements and, despite the small proportion of reports we are actively working on options to improve.
          We have identified a couple of options and are testing these to ensure that there are no side effects. This process will take a short while. In the meantime there are many satisfied owners and (as with any detailed scale model) it should be handled, operated and run in keeping with consideration to the its being a detailed scale model.
          Last edited by Andy Dapol; 20 July 2016, 23:18. Reason: added details
          Regards
          Andy

          Dapol Staff Member

          Comment


          • Mark2016
            Mark2016 commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Andy, that's useful advice, thanks. I'll be very happy to report back. I'm away for 2 or 3 weeks now and probably won't get round to picking one up until TINGS ... also hoping to get a couple of green 33s if they've arrived by then.

          • JeremiahBunyan
            JeremiahBunyan commented
            Editing a comment
            When is TINGS?

          • doug22150
            doug22150 commented
            Editing a comment
            This very helpful information and it's great that Dapol have taken the trouble to investigate the issue fully. My own Repton which damaged its valve gear following a derailment has been replaced and fully tested by DCC Supplies. Thanks very much to Andy for the excellent service and support.

        • #55
          TINGS is on the 10th and 11th of September this year.
          Regards
          Neil

          Dapol Staff Member

          Comment


          • JeremiahBunyan
            JeremiahBunyan commented
            Editing a comment
            Thank you Neil, not that far off...I cannot wait to see what you'll have in store for us at TINGS be it a new announcement or general EP samples.

        • #56
          Checked the clearance of the valve gear to the bogie wheels, and then filmed this. After about 30 laps around the track, the front bogie wheel decided not to follow the points and derailed itself - which can happen to any loco. But because I'd already checked the clearance then absolutely no damage was caused. Proof enough of a Back to back gauge for the valve gear joints being needed I think

          Comment


          • woodbury22uk
            woodbury22uk commented
            Editing a comment
            Really useful video which illustrates the issue well. Also worth noting that using a re-railer would reduce the risk of handling the valve gear when placing a locomotive on the track, lifting the loco with fingers away from the valve gear is a good idea, and worth placing the loco upside down in a foam cradle when making the adjustments to the valve gear. These theee measures should minimise the risk of unintended damage whatever locomotive is being worked on.

        • #57

          I have just installed a RH Peco set track curved point on my layout to replace the existing short RH set track point on a short relief line on my layout and have found that although most locos including the new Dapol Schools that will negotiate it in the trailing direction, a number of them, particularly tender locos, have difficulty when they reach the v piece in the facing direction heading into the tighter curve.
          This may be in part due to the fact that it is on the end of a fairly tight curve, but as it was intended to mainly be used in the trailing direction it will not be a problem for me.
          wagons or coaches propelled through the point in either direction seem unaffected.

          Hope this helps

          Regards,

          Alex

          Comment


          • Hailstone
            Hailstone commented
            Editing a comment
            more track modifications completed yesterday, with my heart in my mouth I attacked the main lines and installed a trailing crossover utilising Peco Set track curved points. after a considerable time testing, I can happily announce that everything I tried through it including the Schools had no problem in either direction (note the minimum radius of the main line curves is 12 inches) even to the extent of putting a Brighton Belle through in the facing direction at high speed with the motor bogie in the rear (as well as a 4-CEP!).
            I believe now that my problems with the point at the other end of the layout is due to the sharp curve leading into it, and would recommend anyone thinking of using these points to try and avoid putting them on too sharp a curve leading in.
            The track geometry of my main lines at this location is not quite as symmetrical as it was but the ability to reverse trains in the through station was irresistible and has added a new set of operating possibilities.
            now for a decent running session

            Regards,

            Alex

        • #58
          Have received the club model of the schools class. Very impressed so I bought the special from Osborn Models am very pleased with both models. Well done to all at Dapol

          Kind regards

          David

          Comment


          • #59
            I attended my clubs monthly afternoon running session (Berkshire area group NGS) on Saturday and a few members were trying their Schools out on our modular layout - some of us had problems, including myself and investigating the derailment point I noticed that with a slight bump in the track where 2 modules joined caused the bogie to derail. loosening the pivot screw helped this, so at home I took a close look at the loco on flat straight track and gently raised the front buffer beam (with the pivot screw tightened) and discovered that the bogie wheels lifted immediately there being no float at all. In my view, there should be at least 1mm of float in the bogie, so that the wheels remain positively against the rail head even if the leading loco driving wheels are above them to take care of uneven track (the real ones also do this) to prove my theory, I made a 0.75mm washer and placed it between the bogie pivot and the pivot screw and tightened it. the loco then negotiated a made up "bump" in the track which my unaltered one derailed on. I would ask Dapol, with their better facilities to test my theory to see if I am correct.

            Regards,

            Alex
            Last edited by Hailstone; 16 August 2016, 15:25.

            Comment


            • #60
              For anyone wanting to renumber/rename
              their Schools (or Bulleid light pacifics) Lytchett Manor models have a few nameplates and smokebox numbers for 10 of the Schools and quite a few of the Bulleids, they are clearance lines so don't leave it too long!

              Comment

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