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**JR_P** · 23 June 2016, 11:44

Hi Dapol,

Don't worry, there is no need to thank us - I'm pretty sure us modellers don't need asking twice for us to share our 'wish list' ;-) !

What I'd really like to explore / discuss is the 'success criteria' that you apply to whether, or not, a particular model gets made.

I mean, Dapol (or any other manufacturer) is doing what they do to meet a demand in a particualr marketplace and (hopefully) generate enough profit to sustain the business.

I think it would be helpful to modellers (when proposing a particular item for you to produce), to understand the chance of what they suggest *actaully* coming to fruition.

I'd also like for the manufacturers to consider a paricular model, not in economic isolation, ie. will that model break even, but will it fit into a wider context and therefore attract greater interest; thereby enhancing sales by virtue of relevancy...

.... the best example I can give of this (that I can think of) is the Farish London-Midland Class 350 - lovely looking model, but when originally released was completely obsolete because what do you run it with?!.... there is nothing out there in a wider context (appart from WCML freight flows), consequently it hasn't sold well.... however, when RevolutioN announced the Pendo, suddenly the 350 became relevent....

In fact, relevent enough that I bought *two* Pendos and *three* 350s, which I'd never planned to do. Then Revolution announces a Class 321 - the London-Midland version will slot right into the unfolding scenario.... gonna get two of them as well, so now I have a fully-represented *realistic* WCML scenario - brilliant :-) !!!

So to conclude; my point being, is that I went out and bought numerous models i'd not planned to, because I could complete a realistic scenario - for me, its not so much whether a particular class loco has, or hasn't been done, but whether it compliments an existing *scenario* - that's what makes *me* spend *my money*....

Would be good to get Dapol's thoughts.... and anyone elses too ;-)

.... looking forward to a stimulating debate....

Cheers, JR

**Jeff Eastmond** · 23 June 2016, 14:27

That's the sort of joined-up thinking that the other major manufacturer needs to be aware of.

I have a couple of 4Ceps - great, there's enough in OO - the 2EPB, and now 2HAP - that if they were produced in N it would make the 4Cep even more attractive (and thus prompt reruns), because of the possible scenarios that modellers may be interested in creating. Modellers would even be able to bash a 4EPB from a pair of 2EPBs and possibly make sales of that model even higher. I had high hopes for an announcement that would fulfil this wish, but no, they announce the 319 - totally incompatible with the existing 3rd rail offerings.

**Andy Dapol** · 27 June 2016, 14:10

What I'd really like to explore / discuss is the 'success criteria' that you apply to whether, or not, a particular model gets made.

This possibly isn't as simple to answer as it first appears

There are quite a few criteria we consider many of which require the aid of a crystal ball!

Firstly, demand - will it sell?
Cost - Can we make it in economical quantities - i.e. how many variants can be produced from the basic tool(mould) - Good examples would be the NMT or Royal train.
If 2 doesn't apply, can we introduce spin-off benefits? i.e. HST-p tooling the carriages allows, (with modifications) pre-CDL blister stock to be produced.
How difficult is it to obtain drawings or view the prototype? i.e. How accurate can we make the model?
Does it fill a need in the market?

There are other considerations as well, often unique to the model being considered, but mostly as you can see, its variations on item 1. We need to produce an accurate model at the right price within a realistic timescale. Therefore, the reasoning for the Digest. Your suggestions and debates help inspire us and offer a real vision of what and why certain models are needed.

**CeeDee** · 18 July 2016, 21:32

There you go: 1 to 5 all covered with a BR (SR) N15 (K Arthur) and a Lord Nelson......sorted!

**CeeDee** · 19 July 2016, 10:24

.....and whilst on the subject of evocative locos.....an S15 isn't too much different from an N15, if you take my drift...nudge, nudge....

**Dorsetmike** · 31 July 2016, 15:25

While you're about it don't forget the H15, with the x15s there are differences in length as well as wheel sizes, parallel or tapered boilers, LSWR or Maunsell cabs, Watercart, or Urie/Maunsell 8 wheel tenders, or Maunsell 6 wheelers. I currently mix and match Langley S15 and BHE N15 kits and use Fleischmann chassis for S15, Minitrix chassis for H15 and Peco Jubilee for N15, Tender drives Fleischmann for watercart, Minitrix or Union Mills with extra pair of wheels for Urie/Maunsell, I don't have any N or S 15s with 6 wheel tenders, but would use UM for those.

**Paul South Midlands** · 17 August 2016, 19:30

Based on those criteria you want something like a Thumper.

Widely used on both Southern and parts of WR
Iconic Southern but diesel so no third rail needed and qujte at home on a layout otherwise populated by M7s and maunsell stock as on one with IC125s etc.

Used from steam era to post privatisation.

Common parts with SR suburban electric stock EPB, HAP, etc so reducing tooling needed for follow ons.

It surprises me that anyone would consider manufacturing a southern EMU which will inevitably have a somewhat restricted market (how many N gauge third rail layouts are there) when the thumper remains unmade in N other than in kits.

Three car - perfect N gauge set length.(two car also)

Two similar variants hampshire and Oxted.

Etc

**JeremiahBunyan** · 18 August 2016, 17:46

Originally posted by Andy Dapol View Post

This possibly isn't as simple to answer as it first appears

There are quite a few criteria we consider many of which require the aid of a crystal ball!

Firstly, demand - will it sell?
Cost - Can we make it in economical quantities - i.e. how many variants can be produced from the basic tool(mould) - Good examples would be the NMT or Royal train.
If 2 doesn't apply, can we introduce spin-off benefits? i.e. HST-p tooling the carriages allows, (with modifications) pre-CDL blister stock to be produced.
How difficult is it to obtain drawings or view the prototype? i.e. How accurate can we make the model?
Does it fill a need in the market?

There are other considerations as well, often unique to the model being considered, but mostly as you can see, its variations on item 1. We need to produce an accurate model at the right price within a realistic timescale. Therefore, the reasoning for the Digest. Your suggestions and debates help inspire us and offer a real vision of what and why certain models are needed.

Andy Dapol Joel Dapol Neil Dapol Added some more points to my previous post.

I've posted about this on two occasions in the N Gauge Locomotive Wishlist thread, and obviously I'm referring to the Class 87 and Class 90...

Will they sell? Yes, apart from the Class 86, the Class 87 and Class 90 are the next most common AC electrics. With the Class 87 entering service in the BR Blue days and the Class 90 shortly after during the IC days and both being in service till date I think that they will sell. However I still feel they should be limited in quantity i.e. NOT OVER-PRODUCED.

Can it be made in economical quantities? Obviously yes, the Class 90 more than the Class 87. However both have a long life in service and survived through many eras and hence a few liveries. And bear in mind that the Class 87 (2 face variations if I'm not mistaken) and Class 90 (2 valance variations, 2 horn grille variations) both have minimal variants i.e. you need lesser tooling slides.

Spin-off benfits? IMO I think the best spin-off benefit is the similarities between them (I've already explained that). The main parts i.e chassis block and bogies have identical specs. Lots of components to share. I've listed them in the other thread.

Obtaining drawings? Very easy to get hold of them.

Does it fill a need? With your N gauge catenary and forthcoming N gauge catenary I think the sale of AC electrics will pick up. A lot of nice combos to sell Dapol do a lovely set of Mk3 coaches, a lovely Mk.3 DVT and a couple of container wagons. All these are very much compatible with the Class 87 and Class 90. I see some nice booksets. Loco twin packs also a nice feature.

**Andy Dapol** · 22 August 2016, 10:28

Thanks for the update Jeremiah, My comments were general criteria which (along with other specifics) we apply to any prospective project. I agree with your comments in respect of the 87 & 90 and it does score higher due to this, I can't say for sure if/when we will look at this, but they are definitely in the list.

**SteveU** · 27 August 2016, 08:18

Want to say a big thank you to Dapol for the digest, it has been great seeing all the knowledge people have put forward for new and old products and future products...

Considering that 'N gauge' is allegedly the little brother of 00 it is interesting to see over 1,200 posts in the N Gauge section as opposed to the 300+ in the OO section...

Does this mean N Gauge modellers are more engaged with Dapol (other manufacturers are available) than there large scale brethren?

Whatever the reason keep it going as it would seem we are more likely to get the rolling stock and locos that we want at a detail level not seen before, yes it can get expensive but the joy of seeing these miniature masterpieces (that sounds familiar...) is a joy. This from someone who currently has a very nice wall display case and a part built layout stored vertically in the garage with no room currently to get it horizontal and run 'trains'! Even running on the rolling road is a greater joy with Dapol as the shaft drive moves the main gear, not so on tender drives without a shaft transfer... no name mentioned...

Keep it up Dapol and Dapol customers

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