buffet cars

[robert shrives]

I hope that the current info will soon show the twin pack as the buffet cars. some chat on N group on buying and sharing for those not needing or affording the full sets.
The buffet car story for the HST build is a book in its own right....
cheers
Robert

[Andy Dapol]

Thanks Robert, There are still a number of updates to be posted at this time. this is certainly one of them and, yes we are addressing this issue

[robert shrives]

Andy , Thanks looking forward to its arrival as are many, a signature train of my misspent youth ...

[Andy Dapol]

Mine too! - My Father was a TTI in those days and I tagged along during various on board passenger surveys. I can still smell those brakes now!

[Arthur Hodgett]

As a great lover of the HST and I have quite a lot of them, the decision not to make a coach mold like the engine was a big disappointment to me. There are so many coach variants and we must be on the fourth or fifth unique mold by now.

[Andy Dapol]

Hi Arthur,

the decision not to make a coach mold like the engine

I assume you are referring to the catering cars? As we are producing accurate Mk3 saloons, I'll discuss the catering cars:
We thought long and hard (in no small part, this was the reason for the slow update to the options for this model) and though we were disappointed by the need compromise, we had to consider costs.
The reality is that the tooling must be economically viable i.e. we have to produce models that are affordable, and in this case we have to consider this is a one-off production that profits will go to charity (The Miller Project) therefore we must make one on this production run.

Consider that in this case we have two vehicles: A TRSB and a TRUK of which only 250 each are to be produced, ever.
Now, although both have seen alternative usage post HST-P:

• TRUK 10100 as 977089 Lab #21 and scrapped in 1993, interestingly it was used to trial the Executive livery before it ended up in RTC livery.
• TRSB 10000 as 975984 RTC Lab 15, Test car 4 and currently as the recording coach on the NMT

It could be considered that these departmental versions would be a great opportunity to balance the books, however, in order to produce these cars the tooling would require further modification, the roof on both has non-standard additions (unique in both cases) -a new tool. Subtle (and not so subtle) changes to the body sides, requiring new tooling once more. Interior detail is likely changed as well (another tool) therefore each departmental coach is effectively a new set of tools and research.
Justification for tooling the HST-P Mk3s was much easier on that: Firstly we are making eight cars per set and that, with minor modification, we are shall be able to produce early Mk3 stock in the future.

Bearing this in mind we were to produce the two catering vehicles for this set, the cost for the two cars would be approximately the same as the remainder of power cars and coaches put together - 'though I must say, it would be a truly exclusive set

However, as always on the digest - lets talk it over, a little lateral thinking never goes amiss!

[CaleyDave]

Producing something is better than nothing and I am sure there are a lot of people out there who will be happy as long as it has 4 full sized windows. There may be some scope for modifying the tooling to produce production Trailers but you are the experts on this mater and I doubt this would enable both variant to be produced at a reasonable price.

The Production TRUK (405xx, 20 Built) and TRSB (400xx, 37 Built) Coaches are heavily based on the Prototype's. Other than the roof vents and windows being different between the prototypes and production, With no reference to the plans, I believe the TRUK body to be identical however am yet to pass judgment (leaning towards no difference) on the TRSB body shell.

The life of the TRUK is interesting but perhaps shouldn't be top of the MK3 Catering Coaches wish list.
The TRUK was used along side the TRSB at first and then lost favor and were used to stand in for mk3 which had failed in a rake. Some would find themselves becoming TRFK and used on the ECML Tyne-Tee's and Yorkshire Pullmans making it into Swallow Livery. An interesting one off is the TLUK 40513 which was used as the Executive Saloon which was a private coach which could be hired and attached to any HST set featuring a Conference table and lounge chairs. The remaining TRUK's were converted to the Loco motive hauled catering coaches currently in your range but became unrecognizable as TRUK after conversion. (Livery's; TRUK Blue, TRSB Executive+Swallow, TLUK Executive)

The life of the TRSB is longer lived. These were retained on the Western region and became classified TRB which had first class seating. Beyond Privatization they are still in service. If a HST has a Buffet car with 4 windows it should be one of these.

---
Alternatively, and I think the answer would be a no on grounds of difficulty and cost, the molds could be modified to allow for the 3 windowed Catering cars to be produced.

Just my thoughts and understandings. Look forward to the product regardless of the final catering cars.
-Dave

[DavidInYork]

Not entirely correct.

Not all of the TRUKs became RFMs (there were 12 which did). Several went for conversion into royal train vehicles, and another couple became TFs (currently in the GW fleet, one converted to a TC now). One was stored for a long time before becoming part of the NMT. The Executive saloon was subsequently re-gauged and heavily modified and went to work in Ireland, where it is now preserved.

TRSBs remained in use with Crosscountry until the HSTs were replaced by Voyagers, and Grand Central still use them. There are a number which were converted to various types of first-class-seated catering vehicle, mostly now with GW although Virgin East Coast has one (40805).

[CaleyDave]

Quite right I had lost track of the exact numbers of some of the conversions. Having dug through notes;

12 TRUKs as you said were converted to loco hauled modular restaurant cars. The first two converted became RSM and all the rest became RFM. Unless the Standard class variants had a specific purpose I assume they were converted further but don't know when or to what. I, again, assume someone had a rethink but only after the first two were converted much like the new build BFO's being canceled after 3 were built.

To clarify what I know is around 1988 The status of the TRUKs were; (Total 20)
3 TRFK "Pullman" catering cars 40501, 40505, 40511
1 TLUK "Executive" saloon 40513
4 Royal coaches 40512, 40514, 40515, 40518 (Became 2916, 2917, 2918, 2919)
2 RSM locomotive hauled 40519, 40520 (Became 10200 and 10201)
10 RFM locomotive hauled 40502-10,16,17 (Became 10202-10211 with the rest of the RFM being converted from RFB (3 windowed former RUB in the 100xx number range) and FO's.
--
20

For the sake of completion my notes also show that in 1988 of the 37 TRSB (400xx);
10 had become TRB in the 402xx number range and
27 remained TRSB but in the 404xx number range

The conversion to TF's is out side my time frame and areas of knowledge However I believe you are correct. After privatization I have no idea. I never knew the saloon went to Ireland very interesting.
Thanks for the corrections.

[DavidInYork]

The two prototype RSM / RFM conversions were used interchangeably with the later ones- they have a few detail differences, but nothing significant.

10200 and 203 are in the Anglia fleet and are or have been modified with a shorter kitchen and a larger, standard-class saloon area.
201 and 202 are stored (owned by Arriva)
204 is a vinyls demonstrator at 3M's site in Bracknell
205 is a mess coach at the Batltefield line (owned by Arriva)
206 belongs to the 125 group and is used with the prototype HST power car
207, 209 and 210 have been scrapped
208 is a Chiltern vehicle, and has been heavily modified with a smaller kitchen and a disabled toilet, and has power doors at one end.
211 is in the DB managers' train

Of the royal train vehicles, two are in use and the other two long-term stored.

As regards TRSBs, the only ones now retaining standard-class seating are the three in the Grand Central HSTs. These are the only Mk3s in the Grand Central fleet which were built as HST trailers - all the others are conversions from loco-hauled Mk3a coaches.