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  • Revamp of [220/221] model fleet

    Hi , even if the real ones soldier on with little or no chance of a "works" visit. I think it is time to revisit this fine but now long in tooth model.
    Inter car electrical couplings, new motor - in end vehicle so one DCC chip only, factory sound? less dark glazing, interiors and lighting ?
    220 bogies to the western bushed axle standards to improve free rolling and road holding would seem to be a large spec. body seems fine to me but perhaps an all new model will be the way forward?

    Robert
    Last edited by robert shrives; 1st June 2016, 22:12. Reason: spelling !

  • #2
    Originally posted by robert shrives View Post
    Hi , even if the real ones soldier on with little or no chance of a "works" visit. I think it is time to revisit this fine but now long in tooth model.
    Interesting comments. There have been several discussions regarding this (with similar specification to your suggestion) within Dapol; our electrical coupling (used on the class 142) is an option though to implement all desired changes a complete chassis change would be required. The question is, with such a re-tool, would sales quantity's be sufficient to keep RRP realistic. Or would customers prefer a lower cost model, but to the existing specification?
    I think this will make an interesting discussion
    -Andy
    Regards
    Andy

    Dapol Staff Member

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Andy & Robert,

      Would love to see the 220 revamped rather than re-released. Also the 221 which although a better model had similar problems.

      The drive mechanism in both is poor and the wiring fragile in the extreme.

      The body capture the look, but with the Pendolino coming out with optional factory fitted sound, seating and lighting probably best to bite the bullet.

      Best regards

      Iain

      Comment


      • #4
        Merged Post #1

        hi, Title is not clear as to content! I assume we are talking about the Voyagers? or have I missed the point? I think moderators should be able to change titles which are not specific enough. I have a few Voyagers and would also like a revamp, but would probably only buy a couple.

        Merged Post #2

        HI,
        There are some excellent suggestions in this thread, maybe it would be worthwhile polling our customer base to determine the viability of the suggested changes. it may also be worthwhile as suggested by Arthur that titles to threads are made more specific to avoid a lot of similar titles getting generated through time and causing confusion at a later date.

        Kind Regards

        Neil
        Last edited by Andy Dapol; 8th June 2016, 11:09. Reason: Posts merged (Duplication of comments re: Housekeeping)

        Comment


        • Andy Dapol
          Andy Dapol commented
          Editing a comment
          Hi Arthur and Neil. Thanks for the suggestions, I've modified the thread title. We shall need to be vigilant. Members can assist in this perhaps?

      • #5
        It might be worth doing another run of the 220s, with perhaps a slightly beefed-up drive train, to the original spec. Voyagers are getting hard to find RTR these days at reasonable price and I'm sure many of us would welcome a more budget-friendly version!

        The 220 is also a good conversion base for a Class 222 Meridian using Electra vinyl overlays (plug).

        Comment


        • #6
          Thanks for the feedback. Let's keep this discussion running as some good things are coming out of it. Just what we'd hoped for😀
          Regards
          Andy

          Dapol Staff Member

          Comment


          • #7
            Possibly the 221 Super Voyager is the better target for a revamp. Farish have been offering the 220 Voyager for a while now so I don't know how much demand there would be for a retooled one. The Super Voyagers on the other hand are just slightly different and may sell better.

            The 221s are still operated by both Virgin and Cross Country (the 220s are now all in Cross Country livery). Lastly the 221s are regularly used on the WCML where they run alongside the Pendolinos. With the Pendolino coming soon from RevolutioN, there may be renewed interest on units that run alongside them to create a complete WCML "scene".

            For me, the drive train is the most important thing to get right. IIRC the body toolings for your Voyagers were pretty good but you need them running sweetly and smoothly (something the original 220s did not always manage). Correctly numbered sets to allow both 4 and 5-car sets without having to hunt down extra coaches would be a welcome bonus. Sound and lighting are not features that appeal to me overmuch but others might be tempted.

            The 5-car Pendolino was being offered at £195 which includes features like table lighting. This sort of price would probably need to be taken into account with a revamped Voyager. If the price is heading north of £150 then features like lighting etc and capacity for DCC-sound would need to be considered. For a simpler retool of the drive train, DCC-sockets and basic stuff, I think the sets would need to be closer to the £150 mark.

            Food for thought.

            Comment


            • #8
              Hi there,

              I think the shape of the model is good, but I agree it needs improved drivetrain, better running bogies and clearer glazing.

              To justify this, what about producing a new model of the Class 222 Meridien Voyager? They've run in MML, Hull Trains and EMT colours in 4-, 5-, 8- and 9- car configurations, and I believe would only require two bodyshells - driving car and trailer.

              Once the Meridiens are done you could then use the improved chassis/drivetrain/glazing for another run of the original models, provided compatibility was built in at the design stage.

              cheers

              Ben A.
              Last edited by Ben A; 15th June 2016, 13:11.

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by Matt Pinto View Post
                The 5-car Pendolino was being offered at £195 which includes features like table lighting. This sort of price would probably need to be taken into account with a revamped Voyager. If the price is heading north of £150 then features like lighting etc and capacity for DCC-sound would need to be considered. For a simpler retool of the drive train, DCC-sockets and basic stuff, I think the sets would need to be closer to the £150 mark.

                Food for thought.
                Just for clarity the £195 quoted was the original "EarlyBird" price. Before the order deadline the price had risen to £220. I would have thought that a properly reworked 4-car Voyager should be at around RRP £200-250.

                I think we need to be realistic about prices here - trying to keep them artificially low is often the reason for poor engineering decisions at the design stage. My preference would be for a model engineered to Kato quality and if that means it's a bit pricier then fair enough.

                cheers

                Ben A.

                Comment


                • #10
                  Would be nice to see some revamped 220s and 221s. My choice would be to buy appropriate 4 and 5 car sets, as has been mentioned earlier, hunting for extra coaches is a bug bear.

                  Electrical couplings would be a great idea and if the sets are heading towards £200-£250, then it would reduce additional outlay if we can just buy one chip, rather than 3.

                  Sound would be a very welcome addition for me, along with interiors. It would be nice to see the Schafenberg couplers on the driving cars, I think these worked really well and looked very prototypical when used.

                  Cheers, Mark.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    A revamped one would probably be popular - both the Dapol and Farish existing ones are older models now and neither are up to modern standards.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      And if you have electrical connections built into the couplings you could put the drive in one of the centre cars (I don't like the idea of pushing three coaches around) and still have directional lighting and only one decoder would be needed in dcc.
                      In addition, I think there would be an add on/conversion market for the couplings on their own.
                      Member of Ely & District MRC
                      Owner of Neely - a depiction of modern day Ely station - available for exhibitions

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        I would be more than happy to pay a higher price for a better spec model especially if it meets the same standard as the upcoming Pendoliono. Little features like working table lamps and sound, are an attractive extra in my opinion. The requirement for only one DCC chip is a certainly plus point and does indeed justify a price rise in the cost of the model.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Can I also put forward the suggestion to look into producing 220 dummy sets, so that that people could do prototypical 5+4 rakes? Naturally, this may require some nose re-tooling and a coupling system. Might I suggest the system used on the 156's to couple Power & Dummy together as a possibility? To be fair, the nose needs redoing anyway, the current system on both the Dapol and Farish variants with the valences being easily broken/lost is a nightmare!

                          The 221 could (should) be a pack of 5 units (ie, don't do the extra carriage seperately, but include it as part of the pack)

                          I terms of Price and Sound comments made above, I'm happy to pay a higher price for better spec'd models and would happily supliment/replace the sets I currently have.

                          Comment


                          • JeremiahBunyan
                            JeremiahBunyan commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Hope you don't mind me posting, but I'm only echoing what's been said by Dapol before on this very forum, these days producing dummy sets isn't as cheap as it was before. And with ever increasing prices the cost of a dummy set is no more viable. According to many in the model train industry the latest prices for a dummy are almost as expensive as a motorized set because a dummy is identical to a motorized set sans the motor.

                            So unfortunately dummies aren't practical anymore.

                        • #15
                          Originally posted by PaulShanahanUK View Post
                          Can I also put forward the suggestion to look into producing 220 dummy sets, so that that people could do prototypical 5+4 rakes? Naturally, this may require some nose re-tooling and a coupling system. Might I suggest the system used on the 156's to couple Power & Dummy together as a possibility? To be fair, the nose needs redoing anyway, the current system on both the Dapol and Farish variants with the valences being easily broken/lost is a nightmare!

                          The 221 could (should) be a pack of 5 units (ie, don't do the extra carriage seperately, but include it as part of the pack)

                          I terms of Price and Sound comments made above, I'm happy to pay a higher price for better spec'd models and would happily supliment/replace the sets I currently have.
                          Whether or not there are dummies, the models need to be able to couple to each other. However, the 156 coupling probably isn't a good idea as it doesn't look like a Dellner coupler.

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