Are you interest in modern Class 73 variations?

[Andy Dapol]

Please vote for the Class 73 variation you have interest in.
REVEL Ultra 73. A rebuilt ‘73’ constructed by RVEL for Network Rail, the locomotive is substantially re-engineered, with a modern cab layout and overall design. Powered by two Cummins diesel generators electronically controlled power conversion equipment, and an all new electro-pneumatic braking system. The locomotives external appearance differs substantially from the original class 73's

73/9 Rebuilt for GBRf, five ‘class 73 were re-engined as Class 73/9. Built to modern standards the 73/9 is cleaner, quieter and more fuel efficient. It also meets modern NR requirements for electromagnetic and signalling compatibility throughout the network.
Rebuilt by Brush Traction Wabtec, numbers 73961-3 (Ex.73209, 73204 and 73206) have been re-fitted fitted with MTU 1,600 hp V8 engines. and a complete re-fit carried out. Externally similar, with new light clusters and repositioned jumper cables. The cab layout has been changed, but keeps the duel control feature. Able to interwork with existing Class 73/1 and 73/2 units in either diesel or electric mode they offer the same power operating diesel traction as it does via the third rail.

Wikipedia entry

[JeremiahBunyan]

Caledonian Sleeper Class 73 for me please! I believe they come under the Class 73/9 classification?

[37081lochlong]

Caledonian sleeper for me too

Saying this i'd prefer more 73/0's & 73/1's in correct shades of blue/yellow before we move on because i've held off buying anything from the first batch due to colour issues

I'm definitely up for a 73/9 eventually though

[Joel Dapol]

We are looking at the colours and will produce another BR Blue in the second batch, with an alternative shade. I know there are comments that the blue we used on the Western is the way to go, but to me this does not look right on the 73. Input on this would be appreciated.

[37081lochlong]

Thats great that there will be more. On a personal level i think that the Western Blue is spot on but as to working on the 73 I couldn't say. For me the blue on the 73 has too much of a purple tinge to it and the warning yellow (on them all) is too lemony (ViTrains had the same issue with their locos too) I'm sure some modellers on a certain forum have their own ideas but they all have different ones and it can be a minefield going there!!

[NP59201]

Caledonian Sleeper for me or GBRF as I do not like the look of the RVEL 73's. I have seen a couple of the Caledonian Class 73's, two at Loughborough Works and one of the pair running light engine to Doncaster Station which I got plenty of pictures as it stopped by the station for awhile before heading South - 73969.

[JeremiahBunyan]

If the GBRf and Caledonian Sleeper variants become popular i.e. in terms of votes, I hope Dapol consider tooling up a Mk3 Sleeper coach too. I know this is in the OO gauge thread, but if you'll can tool up a Mk3 Sleeper then the R&D can be shared amongst N and OO gauge. I doubt CAD can be shared as the differences in both scales are many.

Just a thought. Maybe you'll can consider it.

Maybe Joel, Andy or Neil should start a poll in the OO gauge section for a Mk3 Sleeper. Quite a few liveries also - BR Blue, BR Inter-City, First ScotRail, First Great Western, Great Western Railway, Caledonian Sleeper and Royal Train.

[Joel Dapol]

It's a good one to discuss. My initial thoughts are that there are better projects for us to follow, the main reason being that producing just coaches presents major challenges and decisions. Do we match to what we think are the correct colours and then fail to match to a model locomotive supplier or do we match to a locomotive and leave ourselves open for not being prototypically correct? An interesting conundrum. It also feels like a complete one-off as we already have suppliers who make (Hornby) or intend to make (Oxford Rail) the rest of the mk3 range and if they decide to duplicate this, I feel our model would be out on a limb.

[JeremiahBunyan]

Indeed you make valid points Joel. Maybe something in OO won't be the best choice but it will be something worthy of discussing in N gauge. In terms of colour, I would've always gone straight for matching the prototype. As I understand paint follows something called an RAL code (please correct me if I am wrong). If you'll match the RAL codes and show proof for it, no one can accuse you of getting a colour wrong. I understood everyone's points regarding the colour used on your BR blue Class 73s. I won't disagree, it did look purple. But I remember Dapol saying on facebook that you'll matched the prototype. If you'll had some some of image to show it would've been easy to validate and confirm.

[47352]

We are looking at the colours and will produce another BR Blue in the second batch, with an alternative shade. I know there are comments that the blue we used on the Western is the way to go, but to me this does not look right on the 73. Input on this would be appreciated.

I've looked at the colour diagrams you've uploaded on other threads and there is a mixture of colour specifications with the 08s using RAL colours and the bubble cars using Pantones. After looking at a RAL colour selection at B+Q it appears that Pantone colours allow a lot more variations in colour and it may be worth Dapol standardising on these and the shades of green and blue chosen for the 08s don't look quite right IMHO so did the 73s use these RAL colours too and do the pantone colours allow for more accurate blues and greens?

[Joel Dapol]

I am not the best person to discuss this and I am sure Andy and Richard will have their tuppence worth, but I do know from my experience both Pantone and RAL are widely used. When we receive graphic files from modern train operators, these are generally specified (both references types are used) and our life is easier.

The problem is matching a non-specified colour. For example the class 73, we referred to many photographs and matched the colours to RAL or Pantone references (whichever we thought was best). Of course these colours in the photograph depend on the film, light at the time, storage and exposure settings and for every photograph we produce another I have no doubt could be produced to refute the choice. We have been asking ourselves what really is BR blue and was it really that standard? As I mention above, Western Blue on many photos looks different to Class 73 Blue and in my view would not look right if used on both models. I think the key lesson learned by us all at Dapol is that by publishing on here, we can encourage some positive and constructive criticism/feedback to ensure that what we produce is acceptable to most modellers.

[JeremiahBunyan]

Joel Dapol Andy Dapol Richard Dapol

I've just read Joel's comments about the issues with BR blue. Even I personally feel that you'll nailed the shade on your Class 52 Western's. I'm not sure if it looks wrong or right. But do try to stick to that. As others have said one you standardize it, things will be better.

If you'll still have samples please post them. Customers will be the best to give you feedback.

[Andy Dapol]

@JeremiahBunyan We'll certainly post photos as and when we have anything to show and we agree with your standardisation suggestion; this is one reason for our adoption of international standard colour references (Pantone or RAL, they are the same worldwide).
@47352 B&Qs gamut is only part of the RAL range, there are many more to choose from, such as the design collection. RAL is the European standard for paint colours, Pantone is the standard for printing. Using both as well in addition to BS colours allows us to specify the closet colour to our intent.

Interestingly the arguments over BR Blue extends to preservation forums as well, quite interesting for a 'published' standard colour. I could write an essay on photographic colour reproduction, but won't (you'll be glad to hear ) Suffice to say that without the use of Photoshop I could post a dozen pictures which would show differing shades of the same model. Memory is also subject to colour-cast.

Overall, as Joel says:

we can encourage some positive and constructive criticism/feedback to ensure that what we produce is acceptable to most modellers.

[37081lochlong]

Since my original comment i've stood my blue 52 at the side of a blue 73 in a shop and I have to say that the 52 looks spot on and made the 73 look worse, so i feel that if the colour seems to be very well accepted by the modelling world then i'd personally stick with that shade instead of changing it. Like Jeremiah says, a great looking blue on the 52 but a strange green/blue 22 & blue/purple 73 makes no sense from a single manufacturer.

I didn't get a blue 22 or 73 because of the colour but I do have 2 blue 52's, so thats just one person choosing not to buy because of the colour shade and i'm no where near as picky as a lot of people, so how many others have not bought for the same reason? if you find a good blue, stick with that one!

I'm still definitely more than interested in purchasing blue 73's and modern 73's but my purchases will be influenced by colours

[Matt Pinto]

We are looking at the colours and will produce another BR Blue in the second batch, with an alternative shade. I know there are comments that the blue we used on the Western is the way to go, but to me this does not look right on the 73. Input on this would be appreciated.

Colour reproduction is a notorious minefield. Some emultions and reproductions may suggest a certain shade of a colour while others suggest a different one. Add into that fading and weathering and you have a recipe for disagreement.

Having said all that, I do feel that the shade of blue used on the 73s is not right, it just looks to warm to me. The shade of blue used on Westerns looked about right and I am sure if it was used on the 73s they would look fine. Whilst individual photos can be misleading, photos of 73s alongside other contemporary locos and stock are more useful. Looking at the photos below, it looks as if the shade of Rail blue used on the 73s was the same as used on other locos of the period. There is nothing to suggest they were consistently a different shade to other locos such as the Westerns.

Based on that, I would be inclined to suggest that the same shade of Rail blue as used on the Westerns be better for the second batch.

[philiprporter]

I voted 73/9 which I'm hoping is the Caledonian sleeper class 73/9? I was lucky enough to have a look in the cab of one at Fort William recently and the midnight teal livery is beautiful hoping this is destined for n-gauge?

[Finsbury Park]

Looking at the photos below, it looks as if the shade of Rail blue used on the 73s was the same as used on other locos of the period. There is nothing to suggest they were consistently a different shade to other locos such as the Westerns.

I can't imagine any reason why any Rail Blue loco would have been painted a different shade* to any other Rail Blue loco... the entire point of BR's Corporate Identity was uniformity.

* Possible (very) minor differences between batches of paint aside.

[DavidInYork]

Wouldn't have thought the RVEL ones would be worth your while financially - there are only two of them, both in the same livery, and they seem to have been problematic as they still aren't in regular use after several years.

The GBRF ones are a much better bet - two liveries so far, and 11 locos. The GBRF-liveried ones are seen all over the SE on infrastructure work, and the Caledonian sleeper liveried ones cover a lot of miles in Scotland.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Wouldn't have thought the RVEL ones would be worth your while financially - there are only two of them, both in the same livery, and they seem to have been problematic as they still aren't in regular use after several years.

The GBRF ones are a much better bet - two liveries so far, and 11 locos. The GBRF-liveried ones are seen all over the SE on infrastructure work, and the Caledonian sleeper liveried ones cover a lot of miles in Scotland.

I completely agree with this comment. I have just voted for the GBRF & Caledonian 73/9s. As has been mentioned above their are eleven of these locos which would make it more worthwhile to model. There are also two different liveries which are both popular. Whereas with the Network Rail 73s their are only two of them and they both wear the same livery. They also see little use at the moment.

I wouldn't definitely have the five GBRF 73/9s and probably some Caledonian 73/9s in OO Gauge.

[The Duke 71000]

Modern Electro-Diesel variations ? How about this MONSTROUS (4,500/6,000hp) Electro-Diesel !

Having driven Class 73 ED's when I was a BR driver, such locos are of some interest too me. And of course I already have a Dapol Class 73/1 in early BR blue for my exhibition layout "Basingstoke 1958-67".

A little esoteric, but possibly Dapol would entertain making a model of this newer type of "ED". The accompanying photos are of a MONSTROUS Electro Diesel loco type operating in Spain. The first of which I had the privilege to examine today (Saturday 2nd June 2018) when I took all the photos seen. Incidentally I now work with the Museum here in Mora la Nova, so get to drive Broad Gauge (5ft 6in) gauge trains on ocassion....

CLICK ON PHOTOS TO EXPAND


Above: The "MONSTER ELECTRO-DIESEL" (Class 601) in almost Southern Region green ! Here seen at Mora la Nova station this morning (2/6/18) having arrived at 03.00hrs. The loco had arrived to make a special movement of heritage vehicles from our Museum to a preservation group in the Barcelona area.

This huge Co-Co wheel arrangement beast (Class 601) has the incredible output of 4,500hp on Diesel and 6,000hp on overhead Electric. The driver gave me a guided tour of the interior. Diesel power is provided by TWO V12 cylinder MTU diesel engines. Depending on requirements one or both of these diesel engines can be started to provide either 2,250hp or the full 4,500hp. Under the standard Spanish electrification of 3000v DC the loco obviously uses the 6000hp at its disposal, via one of the two pantographs carried.


Above: An angled shot revealing the modern looking design of this Monstrous Electro-Diesel type, while we waited for the Driver to get out of his Hotel bed.

Only 6 of these Monstrous beasts have been built for the Spanish 5ft 6in Broad Gauge network. A slightly smaller Metre gauge variant exists in slightly greater numbers. One of which operates on a metre gauge system in the Barcelona area. The others all in Northern Spain on the very large metre gauge network along the North Spanish Bay of Biscay coast. These locomotives were it seems built at the behest of a private individual hoping to get into the spot hire market. However he went bankrupt in the process and the receivers sold all six of the Broad gauge locos to "COMSA" a Franchise freight haulier in Spain. These locos normally operate in and around the Basque region in the North, so to see one here in Southern Catalonia is rather unusual.

The locomotive seen in the accompanying pictures, had been "hired" by a preservation group in the Barcelona area. Last October our Museum and the Barcelona group had jointly moved a number of Heritage vehicles "unwanted" by the Madrid Museum. All these vehicles reached us last October, although half were destined for the Barcelona group. Which we have cared for until they could arrange for onward movement which finally ocurred today. The "Monster" brought with it three 4 wheel airbraked container flats to increase Brake Force. As the Heritage vehicles have NO air brakes, only a "through pipe". The "Monster ED" locomotive in addition to air brakes also has "Rheostatic" brakes. Simply, this is an electric brake which feeds power into the traction motors in reverse to "retard" the trains progress, when the locomotive is coasting, especially on the many steep down gradients found in Spain. As Spain is the Second most mountainous country in Europe after Switzerland, and mountains will be seen in the background of one or two of my photos....


Above: A closer view of the cab after the locomotive had switched to Diesel power and moved forward into our Museum exchange sidings. Ugh Volunteers needed for weed clearance !


Above: The diesel engine end of the loco where TWO V12 cylinder MTU engines of 2,250hp EACH are crammed into a very tight compartment.


Above: An interior shot of the Drivers desk. Most but not all of the Broadgauge network drives on the right, so the driver is normnally positioned on the right for best sighting of signals. On the flat area of the drivers desk are two levers, left and right of centre. These are: Left the power and direction control. Right the train brake control. Further to the right another small lever pointing towards the camera is the locomotive brake handle, in the fully applied position. The red button (extreme left) is the Automatic Warning System acknowledment control. On the slanting panel are left to right: The radio telephone system. Train roster details (white paper). Speedometer (maximum speed 120km/h or 75mph). The small gauge below the speedometer is the diesel fuel gauge. The blue coloured panels are a diagnostics panel normally used for maintenance purposes. The Black screen to the right gives details of current diesel engine performance and or electric performance, wheel slippage and computerised control of such. Finally at the right hand end are two small gauges one above the other. The upper gauge shows the Train Brake Pipe pressure (red needle) and Main Reservoir pressure (yellow needle). The lower gauge shows the actual train pipe and Main reservoir situation on the locomotive bogies as these can be independantly controlled, from the rest of the train.

More pictures below.